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CelestialAngel
11-10-2008, 08:15 PM
I was waiting for the Rachel Maddow show to come on and so I caught the tail end of Keith Olbermann's Countdown. He did a special comment about his disagreement over the passage of Prop 8. Quite frankly, it almost made me cry. Thoughts?



"Some parameters, as preface. This isn't about yelling, and this isn't about politics, and this isn't really just about Prop-8. And I don't have a personal investment in this: I'm not gay, I had to strain to think of one member of even my very extended family who is, I have no personal stories of close friends or colleagues fighting the prejudice that still pervades their lives.

And yet to me this vote is horrible. Horrible. Because this isn't about yelling, and this isn't about politics. This is about the human heart, and if that sounds corny, so be it.

If you voted for this Proposition or support those who did or the sentiment they expressed, I have some questions, because, truly, I do not understand. Why does this matter to you? What is it to you? In a time of impermanence and fly-by-night relationships, these people over here want the same chance at permanence and happiness that is your option. They don't want to deny you yours. They don't want to take anything away from you. They want what you want—a chance to be a little less alone in the world.

Only now you are saying to them—no. You can't have it on these terms. Maybe something similar. If they behave. If they don't cause too much trouble. You'll even give them all the same legal rights—even as you're taking away the legal right, which they already had. A world around them, still anchored in love and marriage, and you are saying, no, you can't marry. What if somebody passed a law that said you couldn't marry?

I keep hearing this term "re-defining" marriage. If this country hadn't re-defined marriage, black people still couldn't marry white people. Sixteen states had laws on the books which made that illegal in 1967. 1967.

The parents of the President-Elect of the United States couldn't have married in nearly one third of the states of the country their son grew up to lead. But it's worse than that. If this country had not "re-defined" marriage, some black people still couldn't marry black people. It is one of the most overlooked and cruelest parts of our sad story of slavery. Marriages were not legally recognized, if the people were slaves. Since slaves were property, they could not legally be husband and wife, or mother and child. Their marriage vows were different: not "Until Death, Do You Part," but "Until Death or Distance, Do You Part." Marriages among slaves were not legally recognized.

You know, just like marriages today in California are not legally recognized, if the people are gay.

And uncountable in our history are the number of men and women, forced by society into marrying the opposite sex, in sham marriages, or marriages of convenience, or just marriages of not knowing, centuries of men and women who have lived their lives in shame and unhappiness, and who have, through a lie to themselves or others, broken countless other lives, of spouses and children, all because we said a man couldn't marry another man, or a woman couldn't marry another woman. The sanctity of marriage.

How many marriages like that have there been and how on earth do they increase the "sanctity" of marriage rather than render the term, meaningless?

What is this, to you? Nobody is asking you to embrace their expression of love. But don't you, as human beings, have to embrace... that love? The world is barren enough.

It is stacked against love, and against hope, and against those very few and precious emotions that enable us to go forward. Your marriage only stands a 50-50 chance of lasting, no matter how much you feel and how hard you work.

And here are people overjoyed at the prospect of just that chance, and that work, just for the hope of having that feeling. With so much hate in the world, with so much meaningless division, and people pitted against people for no good reason, this is what your religion tells you to do? With your experience of life and this world and all its sadnesses, this is what your conscience tells you to do?

With your knowledge that life, with endless vigor, seems to tilt the playing field on which we all live, in favor of unhappiness and hate... this is what your heart tells you to do? You want to sanctify marriage? You want to honor your God and the universal love you believe he represents? Then Spread happiness—this tiny, symbolic, semantical grain of happiness—share it with all those who seek it. Quote me anything from your religious leader or book of choice telling you to stand against this. And then tell me how you can believe both that statement and another statement, another one which reads only "do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

You are asked now, by your country, and perhaps by your creator, to stand on one side or another. You are asked now to stand, not on a question of politics, not on a question of religion, not on a question of gay or straight. You are asked now to stand, on a question of love. All you need do is stand, and let the tiny ember of love meet its own fate.

You don't have to help it, you don't have it applaud it, you don't have to fight for it. Just don't put it out. Just don't extinguish it. Because while it may at first look like that love is between two people you don't know and you don't understand and maybe you don't even want to know. It is, in fact, the ember of your love, for your fellow person just because this is the only world we have. And the other guy counts, too.

This is the second time in ten days I find myself concluding by turning to, of all things, the closing plea for mercy by Clarence Darrow in a murder trial.

But what he said, fits what is really at the heart of this:

"I was reading last night of the aspiration of the old Persian poet, Omar-Khayyam," he told the judge. It appealed to me as the highest that I can vision. I wish it was in my heart, and I wish it was in the hearts of all: So I be written in the Book of Love; I do not care about that Book above. Erase my name, or write it as you will, So I be written in the Book of Love."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27650743/

CelestialAngel
11-25-2008, 07:38 PM
Senator Obama believes that marriage is between a man and a women. However, he has clearly stated that he supports the states making their own decisions regarding same sex couples. He has also opposes constituional amendments defining marriage as between a man and a woman.


Barack Obama Quotes on Same Sex Marriage: "On this issue, I have been at the forefront of any of the presidential candidates." [from the Logo presidential debate]


Barack Obama Quotes opposing Same Sex Marriage: "I do not support gay marriage. Marriage has religious and social connotations, and I consider marriage to be between a man and a woman." [ from the Human Rights Campaign's 2008 Presidential questionnaire]

Barack Obama Quotes opposing Same Sex Marriage: "This is an issue that I think helps to describe who we are...[Marriage] connotes to so many people a religious and not just civil element, and that includes me." [source: cnn]

Barack Obama Quotes supporting States making their own decision for same sex couples: "As your President, I will use the bully pulpit to urge states to treat same-sex couples with full equality in their family and adoption laws. I personally believe that civil unions represent the best way to secure that equal treatment. But I also believe that the federal government should not stand in the way of states that want to decide on their own how best to pursue equality for gay and lesbian couples - whether that means a domestic partnership, a civil union, or a civil marriage." [Source: open letter to the LGBT community]



SUPPORTS INTERIM GOAL: FEDERAL PROTECTIONS FOR COUPLES

Barack Obama Quotes on Protections for Couples: "My view is that we should try to disentangle what has historically been the issue of the word ‘marriage,' which has religious connotations to some people, from the civil rights that are given to couples, in terms of hospital visitation, in terms of whether or not they can transfer property or any of the other -- Social Security benefits and so forth." [from the Logo presidential debate]


SUPPORTS INTERIM GOAL: CIVIL UNIONS AND DOMESTIC PARTNERSHIPS

Barack Obama Quotes on Civil Unions: "I continue to support a civil union that provides all the benefits that are available for a legally sanctioned marriage." [from the Logo presidential debate]



SUPPORTS INTERIM GOAL: REPEAL THE FEDERAL DEFENSE OF MARRIAGE ACT (DOMA)

Barack Obama Quotes supporting full repeal of DOMA: "I support the complete repeal of the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA)." [from Obama open letter to the LGBT community posted on Obama's website]



http://www.equalitygiving.org/Barack-Obama-on-the-issues-Equality-Quotes-Gay-Rights

blackicegal
11-28-2008, 06:39 AM
The whole prop 8 thing makes me so mad. I saw the special show Dr. Phil did on the subject. It seems like most who are against gay marriage throw religion into the mix and talk about the sanctity of marriage.

However, these people fail to forget two things: One: whatever happened to separation of church and state? They argue that churches will be forced to marry gays. This is absurd. One does not have to be married in a church and churches know they have the freedom to do things how they see fit when it comes to marrying couples.


Second: marriage is not a "religious institution". Marriage was around long before organized religion. It was started for the purpose of property. The male dominated society wanted to insure that they could hold on to their assets.

People want to argue about "civil unions". When people get married at the courthouse or anywhere outside a church and go down to get that piece of paper, it's called a "marriage", not a civil union. Marriage is a civil right, not a religious one. Therefore, there should be no religious arguments made about it. Again, those who throw in religion tend to argue that marriage is about a man and a woman and them creating new life. Well, what if they are having fertility problems or are infertile altogether? Does this mean they shouldn't get married. One can't just pick and choose parts of the Bible to believe and spew, but that's what people are doing.

People want to spread lies, hatred, and other things about gay marriage causing corruption. Look at the number of straight couples who get divorced, cheat, and otherwise act "unChristian".

Sorry, but the excuses fall apart at the seams.

Trader47
11-28-2008, 01:33 PM
The whole prop 8 thing makes me so mad.

Yeah, it makes me mad too, and while I supported and still support Obama for president, this is the type of issue on which his stance severely disappointed me, (as have the positions taken by every presidential candidate ever run by either of the major parties.) This sort of thing shouldn't even be an issue at all in a free society...segments of the population simply should not be given the power to trample all over what should be the basic human rights of other segments. If these sorts of unions violate the belief systems of prominent religions, that's too damn bad....nobody's asking them to condone it, or talking about forcing them to perform marriages or any other ceremonies they don't wish to perform. But we need laws in our supposedly free union which protect everyone, and guarantee everyone the same basic rights.
I realize that there are those who feel it IS their right (and some who feel it's their duty) to cram their religious beliefs down everyone else's throats... but that is the way things work in religious dictatorships....it's not supposed to be the way it works in a country which trumpets freedom of choice as it's most sacred foundation. Freedom of religion must always, by necessity, include freedom FROM religion for anyone who chooses that path.

As for the religious Right....yes, their rights need to be protected, too....certainly their rights to gather, pray, proselytize about all of the ways in which the wicked are bringing about the end days, and all other manner of hand wringing or yammering they wish to participate in, are and should always be, protected by the constitution. But I've long been more than sick of seeing these people constantly molly-coddled and compromised with by lawmakers and politicians....even those who share these sorts of belief systems should be able to rise above them when passing laws that are supposed to meet the needs of EVERYONE. Obama's positions on this particular issue are of course superior to those espoused by the other major party candidates...but we need to get a lot better on this sort of thing...hopefully see attitudes continue to improve, of course....but barring that, at least insure that the laws we pass work to provide everyone with the type of basic human rights that everyone should have, not restrict them.... even when doing so goes against the grain of popular public opinion.

LOOPYgossip
12-03-2008, 08:12 AM
I admit, I wish Obama were a little more "pro gay," but he just can't be in these political times. I'm happy he's willing to acknowledge the rights of LGBT communities, but I understand that had he taken a more "pro gay" stance, he probably would not have been elected (as sad as that is). The whole prop 8 thing is so disheartening.

Trader47
12-03-2008, 11:33 PM
Yeah, I know you're right on that, and I do think that getting him elected needed to be the major priority. But it just feels really galling to me to be living in the 21st century in a country that celebrates and constantly trumpets the ideal of freedom and still see these kinds of issues even being bandied about. It's such a simple equation, really....for the concept of freedom to mean anything, it has to apply to everyone....otherwise, it's as cracked and muted as the liberty bell. Hopefully, Obama, and all of us who supported him for reasons other than betng panicked by a failing economy, will at least be able to start the ball rolling back in the right direction on ALL of these issues involving personal rights and freedoms...I know that one of the main reasons I supported him was because I felt he'd at least give that an honest try....and at this point, I still see no reason to doubt that he will.

blackicegal
12-09-2008, 06:10 AM
Here's a good argument for gay marriage. Again, those who always want to tout the Bible as an excuse need to truly read it in depth.


http://www.newsweek.com/id/172653?gt1=43002



Also, today here in Iowa, the Iowa Supreme Court will hear the case on whether banning gay marriage in Iowa is unconstitutional.